Oppression & Injustice within the Meat & Dairy Industries (with Gwenna Hunter & Claudia Lifton)

If you've ever been oppressed and carried the weight of an unjust system, you will likely recognize the blueprints of oppression elsewhere when you see it. The problem is, most of us can't see what is purposefully hidden, unless we know where to look... 

Gwenna Hunter is the founder of the Vegans for LA community outreach program and food bank -- the first of its kind in Southern CA.  Claudia Lifton is the Corporate Partnerships Specialist for Mercy for Animals and member of Mayor Hancock's Sustainability Advisory Council and Sustainable Food Policy Council in Denver, CO. 

Both of these incredible women join Katie Kurpanek, Eco-Living Coach and Podcast Host, to discuss what human rights and animal rights have in common, and to completely break down the walls that have been built to keep us from knowing about the current oppression and exploitation of both humans and animals happening all around us.

This episode is packed with science & statistics, as well as cultural and spiritual aspects -- all flowing from a passionate conversation that I will forever be grateful to have shared together. 

Contact Info for our guests:

• Gwenna Hunter Instagram
  • Vegans of LA Instagram
• Claudia Lifton Instagram

Additional Resources:

• Mercy for Animals
• Good Life Refuge
• Vegans of LA
• Vegan Outreach
• Dairy is Scary video (5min long, HIGHLY impactful, not suitable for kids)
• FFAC (Factory Farming Awareness Coalition) 
• Eating Animals book, by Jonathan Safran Foer

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro to Episode
• 2:52 Intro to our guest speakers
• 7:32 Welcome! Tell us about yourselves and your journies to embracing the vegan lifestyle.
• 16:28 Let's talk about how we define animal rights and human rights, as well as conscious vs. living beings...
• 26:42 Discussing the exploitation of farm and slaughterhouse laborers
• 34:39 Understanding terms like "humane", "cage-free", "grass-fed", "organic", "CAFOs" and more
• 44:21 Recognizing the blueprints of oppression and slavery
• 55:11 Is tofu and soy production destroying the rainforest?
• 57:39 What are 1-3 actionable steps we can take to deepen our understanding about animal rights, human rights, etc?
• 1:10:32 Wrapping up and final thoughts/resources

Transcript

Katie Kurpanek: 0:06

You're listening to all things sustainable, where we unpack topics related to sustainable living, as well as how to apply specific actions to your own life. I'm your eco living coach and podcast host, Katie Kurpanek. Let's jump in. Hey, I have a quick question for you. How would you like to save money with unique discounts to nearly 20, and growing eco friendly shops and services, all for less than the price of one coffee per month, like less than$5 a month. One of the perks to becoming a patron of this show is having access to that growing bundle of coupons exclusively for my patrons and my coaching clients. And the updated versions of those discount codes are sent out every three months so that you can continue saving while you shop. Not only do you get these discounts as a special thank you for supporting the show. But you also have the privilege of joining these interviews live via zoom with a chance to have your own q&a with the guest speaker at the end if you want to. And if you can't make it, you still get access to the full unedited conversations with video because I upload the recordings of these interviews for patrons right afterward. So if this show has benefited your life in some way, and you want to support the work that I'm doing, or you're simply intrigued by all of those perks, and you want to enjoy those amazing discounts, check out patreon.com/all Things sustainable. It's linked in the show notes and you can sign up for as low as $3 a month. Okay, thank you so much for being here. And thank you to the amazing patrons who are currently supporting this podcast. This work would literally not be possible without you. Let's get back to our show. Hello, my friends, welcome back to the All Things sustainable podcast where we are in season three talking all things vegan, I am stoked to be here with you all and to bring all these conversations to you every Saturday between now and the beginning of November 2022. The incredible variety of people that I have been able to speak with and interview for this series in particular has just blown my mind I am feeling incredibly grateful already so far, if you've heard the past two episodes, you've heard from vegan psychologist Clare Mann who is based in Australia, and you've also heard from world renowned leading medical expert, Dr. Neal Barnard, who is based in Washington, DC. And so far those conversations have talked about communication, relationships, navigating, you know, talking about what it means to be vegan. That was a lot of the first conversation. And with Dr. Neal Barnard, we focused very heavily, you know, doing a deep dive into the physical health component of that vegan conversation. Now today, we get to dive into more of the social justice and animal justice side of things. We're going to talk about the connection between human rights and animal rights. Or as Gwenna, one of the speakers you'll hear her say, you know, she prefers the word, sovereignty over rights. Because it's something that is just inherent to all of us. It's something we all deserve, rather than something to be earned. So we're going to be focusing a lot on the ethical and moral perspectives of the vegan conversation in today's episode, our guests today are just two powerhouse women, I am so thankful to have been able to talk with them. I mean, I love every single conversation. And there was something about this one that I just felt like we all three of us were just really flowing and connecting with each other and sharing some very vulnerable and important information with you all we had a beautiful balance between the two guest speakers of scientific, you know, statistic data, that kind of focus and then also a very beautiful cultural and spiritual aspect of this conversation as well. So all that together brought a very well rounded approach to human rights and animal rights. And all of us come from the commonplace of not having been vegan for our whole lives. So we share a lot about what that journey was like and our own stories and you know, what, what were our tipping points? What changed our perspective on certain things? And for each of us that was very different. I will tell you that there are some incredibly shocking and somewhat disturbing statistics in this episode. Definitely not to keep you from listening. Of course, I want you to listen to this entire episode. I think it is very, very important to share all this information with you. But I do want to give you that heads up that some of the information shared in this episode may be a little bit unsettling. I can promise you though it will not be coming from a place of you know, shame trying to like shove these statistics down your throat in a way that makes you feel bad or personally judged or anything like that that you may have experienced from other vegan people who are talking about animal rights. It is a huge priority in this podcast to always lead from a place of empathy and respect. So shaming types of tactics will not be used here. I'll tell you a little bit very quickly about each speaker because each of them introduces themselves just beautifully. But Gwenna Hunter is one of the speakers. She is the founder of vegans of La stands for Los Angeles. And that has started a food bank, the vegans of La Foodbank, which is the first of its kind in Southern California offering vegan food, tackling food inequities and insecurities and all of that. She has also worked with greater Los Angeles community vegan outreach as a project leader and a vegan food aid coordinator. She has worked with the local community and social justice organizations such as Black Women for Wellness, Black Lives Matter Los Angeles LGBT Center, South black women farmers of LA and KRST African spirituality center to distribute vegan food to families and people who are living within food deserts. So making a whole foods plant based diet accessible to all people is a huge passion of hers, as well as all of us on the podcast. And our second guest speaker is Claudia Lifton. Claudia is the corporate partnerships specialist for Mercy for Animals in this role Currently, she is working towards getting more restaurant chains to add plant based options to their menus. So she's also working towards making vegan eating more accessible to everybody, which is awesome. And Claudia also serves on Mayor Hancock's sustainability Advisory Council, and Sustainable Food Policy Council working to pass policies that prioritize climate friendly plant based foods on menus across the city of Denver. Here in Colorado, Claudia has spent six years speaking to students, business leaders and stakeholders about the environmental public health, social justice and animal welfare impacts of factory farming. She's also worked abroad across the globe, she's worked all over the United States, she is just a wealth of knowledge as well. So between the two of these women, you are going to be in for an incredible information packed conversation. I loved it so so dearly. And I hope you do too. Without further ado, let's dive right in. Oh, my goodness, I am very excited for today's conversation. It has been just a long time coming in. In my heart it feels like even though we've only been planning this for like a month, but I've just been like waiting and waiting. So we have two guests with us today we have Claudia Lifton and also Gwenna Hunter. Claudia is based in Colorado as well as myself and Gwenna is based in California. We are going to be talking today about the connection between animal rights and human rights, social justice, as well as clearing up some misinformation here, some very common misconceptions, and then how veganism applies to all of this. I am vegan and all you know all three of us are. And that being said, My goal with this whole podcast series is to always lead from a place of empathy and respect and compassion, because we know that listeners are going to be joining from all over the place and with all different kinds of backgrounds and shame based tactics are never a healthy motivator. But I do think that it is so important to get some good honest education out there. So all that to say thank you both so much for joining today.

Claudia Lifton: 8:41

Thank you,

Gwenna Hunter: 8:42

thank you.

Katie Kurpanek: 8:44

Um, let's start by having each of you tell us a little bit about yourselves. I gave our listeners a very brief introduction to you both. But if you want to just tell a little bit about who you are, what you're passionate about, and who are some of the beloved people in your life, and we're gonna get a little bit more into your like, your actual work later in the interview. But whoever wants to jump in and go ahead and introduce yourselves.

Claudia Lifton: 9:09

Gwenna I'm gonna let you start us off

Gwenna Hunter: 9:13

all right, so obviously I'm Gwenna Hunter, I'm the founder of vegans of La stands for Los Angeles. And I have a community organization that is really just now becoming official official. But I started back in 2015 just as a way to meet other vegans I wasn't vegan yet. Honestly, I was vegetarian and vegetarians of La didn't sound that nice. So I'm like Vegans of LA it is. And I ended up I would say a year later, and I was vegetarian just for what I felt were health reasons had nothing to do with animals. And in 2016 I had a dream that I was like flying in the sky. I don't know if I'm jumping ahead of your questions or not. If I am Oh, okay.

Katie Kurpanek: 10:01

No, go for it.

Gwenna Hunter: 10:02

Yeah, in the dream I was flying in the sky and I saw this really beautiful cow in a green pasture. And when I looked at the cow, the cow looked at me and then we merged and became one and I was the cow and I possessed all the cows consciousness, feelings, like like I embodied the cow, and I just possess all memories, feelings, emotions. And as I woke up from the dream, I was like crying because I was like, oh my god, cows love. Because that was the most profound feeling that I received was like their spirit, like their capacity to love which was purer than a human's, in my opinion. And I'm just like, crying. I'm just like, what, and we eat them. And even though I wasn't eating cows, I didn't care if anyone else did. And fast forward just a few, maybe two or three days later, I'm on Facebook, and I'm still contemplating like cows loves pigs gotta love. Chickens must love turkeys must love and my mind is like, just like, and I see this video called Dairy Is Effing Scary by Erin Janus. Five minutes of just total, like, knock you down with the truth. And I'm looking at that, and I'm like, wait a minute, they're conscious. And this is how we get their milk because I still, I, I was, you know, 2016 is when I learned that cows are pregnant for nine months. I never knew that. And so I'm relating to her as a woman, not as an animal. And I'm a woman, I'm like, this is a woman, she shares her baby for nine months. Look what we do to her breast, how we, you know, take the milk, like what we do to her body, how we get them, you know, impregnate them, we take their her sons and make her son a veal, we take her daughter and give her the same life. And I'm just like, like, I saw the exact same blueprint, like the slavery Blueprint was. So there was no barrier or No, I just completely saw what I saw as a human being. And so from that point, I was just like, I knew I was destined to work in this movement. And I just gotta tell everybody, if I just tell people, they'll go vegan, you know, so I was like, I won't I use the term crazy. I was gonna say, super passionate vegan, I was posting slaughter videos, like all day, and I'm like this has to stop. Like, I was just doing that, because I thought that if people saw, they would be like, Oh, I get it. I'll stop. But I realized that that's not how it works. And so ever since then, I've been moving in different ways of this journey, and trying to help wake people up.

Katie Kurpanek: 12:42

Beautiful, Thank you so much for sharing all of that. And we'll definitely come back to some of what you shared later. I'm so excited for the the wonderful foundation that you've set for us so far. Claudia, how about you?

Claudia Lifton: 12:54

Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for sharing. So moving and inspiring. I so my name is Claudia Lifton. I work currently for an organization called Mercy for Animals. I work really closely with restaurants assisting restaurant chains and adding more plant based options to their menus. I also sit on the mayor's sustainability advisory council and Mayor Hancock's sustainable, Sustainable Food Policy Committee, as well as a working group, the institutional procurement working group of Governor Polis is Colorado food systems advisory council. So that's what I'm doing. Currently. I am working on getting some plant-forward policies passed and some plant-forward language included in some upcoming bills, and an upcoming executive order that I'm I'm really hoping we'll be able to get past i. For the past seven years, I worked for the factory farming awareness coalition. So when I moved out to Colorado, I started working for FFAC, and spent, you know, six years. I said seven because I've been gone for a year but for six years, I worked at FFAC and spent pretty much all day long doing presentations in high schools and colleges and offices and really, whoever would have me about the environmental, social justice, public health and animal welfare and workers rights impacts of industrial animal agriculture. So that's what I've been doing since being in Colorado. I my journey actually started with earthworms. Funnily enough, I was obsessed with worms and insects as a kid, and just would cry and cry and cry when kids would kill them at recess and run to the principal crying and I was cruelly labeled bug girl which was carried until high school. But now I wear it as a badge of honor and I love I love my bug girl status. And yeah, in college, I worked at an animal shelter and had been vegetarian for a while, but upon learning about the dairy industry similar to you Gwenna, I made the switch and haven't looked back since. And then, I think working at Catskill Animal Sanctuary really was what kind of solidified the fact that I wanted to spend my life committed to to farmed animals, even after working at you know, animal shelters and working with different species of wildlife abroad, farmed animals kind of became my my main focus. And working at Catskill Animal Sanctuary was a pretty transformative experience.

Katie Kurpanek: 15:57

I love it. That's amazing. I was a teacher before this. And I had several students who would do the same thing at recess, and they would come crying to me about like the worms on the playground. And we would go and we would like, have a little conversation with first graders about, you know, how each student was feeling. And it was, it was honestly a very beautiful thing to be a part of, and I'm excited to see what those kids grow up and become, especially based on your own story. So thank you for sharing all of that. Thank you both. I think that you both bring very interesting, different and connected perspectives to this conversation. And when we're talking about the connection between animal rights and human rights, I know that you both have a lot of experience to kind of help us and our listeners to bridge that gap. So diving into the first official question that I have for you both, in this series, many facets of veganism are being covered, including like physical health and nutritional benefits, you know, vegan isms impact on the earth and climate change, even the psychology behind the relationship with our food and each other. In this conversation, I really want to focus on the connection between animal rights and human rights. And so let's first just set the foundation. Each of you have kind of said a little bit about this already. But let's take a deep dive into how each of you would describe animal rights and human rights. And you can approach that from whatever angle you'd like. And then Gwenna if you want to start this one, I also have a specific question for you in that many people within my own personal circle have mentioned things like well, you know, a vegan diet still kills plants and plants or living things too. So, you know, why don't you care about that? And so I wonder if that might be able to be a part of your like, what you share with us, because I know that in your dream, you talked a lot about like the consciousness of animals. So maybe distinguishing between like conscious living beings versus just like, living beings like plants?

Gwenna Hunter: 18:02

Yes, yes. Okay. So for me, when it comes to human rights and animal rights, it's, it's weird because I'm in this space of, I don't even really like using the term rights even for humans and animals, because it implies that that's something that I need to have, or something that I need to obtain. When sovereignty belongs to everybody. It's, it's, it's just it's a fact, sovereignty is a fact. Everything else, to me is just a complete illusion, and us playing into pretend authority, and pretend power, and just collectively agreeing that, okay, you're a government and you're in control of my taxes, and how much money I get, you're in control of this, but these are all just agreed upon things. These aren't real things. Really, no one has rights over anyone. You don't even own like your children, like everybody is completely like sovereign, and come to this planet free with, you know, the food grows for free. Like, I can imagine from another planet, like Yeah, their food grows for free, don't ever have to do anything, they just put a seed in the ground, and it grows, the water comes for free. But we've manipulated powers and energy to where now we have to go out and earn a living we have to go out and make money we have to create these if we have to have careers, all these careers, other than people that I feel that are in the position that are like helping to like change the planet, but for the most part, these are all made to be the whole thing is just like, made up. It's like a whole big game. And it's like when I saw my dream. Not in my dream, saw it when I saw the video Dairy Is effing Scary and I immediately was like, Oh, this is the same blueprint that they use to make people believe that black people weren't fully human, that we were created for them that, you know, they've included scriptures in the Bible to manipulate that to make it seem like that's what God said what God wanted. Same thing with the animals. There's scriptures in there that says, oh, but you can eat them. And you can eat these beings and these species, which is a whole other conversation I won't get into. But yeah, I just believe in complete sovereignty and restoring that truth. So like, for me, I do a lot of food work. And I don't even like to be in the food justice space, like I'm not fighting for rights, I'm not fighting for food security, I'm just creating another form of balance to make sure that people are entitled, which they are to good quality plant based foods. And then the other part what was the other part of your question? I'm like, I really want to answer that.

Katie Kurpanek: 21:01

Just this specific example, because I feel like it comes up a lot that you know, plants are living things as well. So why don't we care about them is kind of their take on veganism.

Gwenna Hunter: 21:12

So I have a different take on it. I'm not going to be quick to say that a plant doesn't possess a high form of intelligence, but I do know that they don't run when you go to pick them. They don't scream, they don't. You know, they don't cry out. And I felt like if they did, then yeah, that would be an issue. But they don't do these things. And because the plant has a form of life, and I don't debate with people on that question, so I don't even like when people say, Oh, got it. Okay. All right, you win. Okay, let's say the plant is, is conscious. But maybe it's conscious in a way that it's a pleasure for it to be eaten, like, this is what it knows it was it was created for it doesn't mean that it's going to feel pain, or terror, when we actually consume it, because it's going in our body, it's coming out, supposed to go back into the earth, and it'll recycle itself. In some other way, shape or form. So, um, so yeah, I don't do the argument over over the over plants. But like I said, they don't cry out. And they are a form of nutrition. There's people that are like shamans and people that are like in Native American culture that have a gift to speak to plants, like how did people know what the healing power of herbs or certain plants, they had to have some form of some type of communication to know what these plants were capable of doing? So to me this, this thing runs once pretty deep. So I could go into different tangents. But

Katie Kurpanek: 22:57

oh, yeah, we really could, we could have an entire conversation just on this. But I think that I think that the answer that you gave was so like, concise. And I think that our language around this is really important. And, like you said, agreeing with people where they're at to, like, there's certain things that are just not worth worth debating over. But at the same time, we could all probably agree that like, none of us really think twice when we go to like pick a carrot from the ground or something. But we definitely think twice if we're, like, told that we have to go butcher a chicken or something like that. So there's a very, very stark difference there.

Gwenna Hunter: 23:33

Yeah. And I always say, you know, hope, you know, as, as we evolve as human beings and this planet evolves, then maybe we'll evolved one day to not even having to have food, maybe we'll just be solar power people and we just live off the sun and don't have to eat but for right now, plants is it.

Katie Kurpanek: 23:53

Wouldn't that be so nice?

Gwenna Hunter: 23:55

Oh, that'd be great. To get rid of all that stress around food and weight. Yeah. Oh my god.

Katie Kurpanek: 24:04

I love that so much. Well, Claudia, what are your thoughts on this whole conversation?

Claudia Lifton: 24:11

Is it okay if I get a little snarky?

Katie Kurpanek: 24:13

Always!

Claudia Lifton: 24:14

Okay, so when I get the plants have feelings, comments, which I get all the time and used to get multiple times a day every day when I was talking to hundreds of high school students a day about the

Gwenna Hunter: 24:28

high school students. Yikes

Claudia Lifton: 24:31

Yeah, exactly. My my go to is, would you rather stab a watermelon or your dog? Have you ever mowed your lawn? And would you feel more comfortable doing that again? Or would you rather like cut off the tail of a cat? So I think that just like those comments are so clearly a defense mechanism. It's very clearly coming from a place of defensiveness and In cognitive dissonance, but I do find that it's important to kind of put them in their place and acknowledge and remark on the absurdity of them. Also, if you look at like the anatomy of a cucumber and a cat, you will see a lot of differences there, right?

Gwenna Hunter: 25:20

I thought you were gonna say similarities, I was waiting like what?

Claudia Lifton: 25:22

Yeah. But if people do continue to kind of go on and on and on about the plants and feelings, one thing that I do really like to mention is that most of the crops grown on planet Earth are grown to feed farmed animals. So you know, if you really are truly concerned about the feelings of plants, everyone has to eat, But if you want to save lots of plants, you should eat plant based foods, because every time you eat a steak, you're killing way more plants than you do in like months and months and months of eating a vegan diet. So if

Katie Kurpanek: 25:59

genius

Claudia Lifton: 25:59

if y'all really want to get down to it. Let's get down to it.

Katie Kurpanek: 26:04

Oh, my gosh, thank you, I these are the types of like common misconceptions that I feel like are so worthwhile to clear up here because we're not trying to like shame anyone or embarrass anyone. But like you said, there are, there are deep rooted reasons for why these defense mechanisms are coming out. And so when we're having conversations about veganism, if it strikes a nerve, or chord or whatever that phrase is, you know, even listeners right now, if it is striking a nerve, like, it's definitely worthwhile to look inward and reflect on why like, what's the deeper reason maybe behind why it's striking a nerve? Yeah, so. Okay, Claudia. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Claudia Lifton: 26:43

I was just going to kind of expand on that conversation about human rights. I think the main reason really, that there's so much attention on and focus on farm worker rights, which is super important, you know, people working in farm in fields are extremely exploited, and they're exposed to pesticides and sun exposure. And, you know, children under 12 years old, are forced to work for up to 14 hours a day, there's so much exploitation in the production of plant based foods, of course. But whenever you tell someone that you eat a vegan diet, that's kind of their first response, they automatically are often start talking about, like exploited farmworkers. But the reason it's so much easier to talk about exploited farmworkers than it is to talk about exploited slaughterhouse workers, because the word the word slaughter automatically brings up this deep, deep, deep discomfort and people because it makes them immediately feel responsible. And I mean, yes, of course, it it's so important that we pay attention to how farmworkers are treated, but would you rather pick a strawberry or slit a pig's throat, which one would cause you more trauma? And also, if we're talking about like exposure to toxic chemicals, people working in factory farms and slaughterhouses have it the worst, right? They're exposed to antibiotic resistant bacteria, feces, the majority of slaughterhouse workers suffer from severe upper respiratory infections. 40% of hog farm workers tested positive for Mersa, which is an antibiotic resistant staph infection. And if you live near a factory farm, you're three times more likely to to be a Mersa carrier. And of course, most of the people living near factory farms are lower income folks or lower income communities of color. So, you know, and not not just the inherent trauma of killing animals all day long. It's essentially like going to war. We're paying people less than minimum wage, to essentially go to war every single day in this country, so that we can eat cheap meat that's destroying our planet and making our kids sick. So yeah, farm workers are important, but slaughterhouse workers should be a priority here. And they're not for very obvious reasons. Because talking just the word meat industry, just just the word vegan is so triggering for people that are so clearly conflicted about their own choices. You know, there is an average of two worker amputations a week and chicken slaughterhouses. The machinery is moving so quickly that it cuts off their hands. You know, this is machinery designed to cut apart bodies, and the slaughter lines move so quickly that it's cutting their, their their body parts off. Chicken slaughterhouse workers are often forced to work diapers at work. They're not given bathroom breaks. The majority of slaughterhouse workers are undocumented folks. Typically people of color. Many are women of color who face extremely high rates of sexual harassment and sexual violence. And it's happening. Like, the meat industry likes it, it's happening behind closed doors, we can see people outside picking fruits and vegetables. Similarly to how like we can see the water that we're using when we take a shower, but we don't really see the water that it takes to produce a burger. We can see these farmworkers, right, so so they come to the top of our minds. But slaughterhouse workers are hidden, and it's very intentional. And of course, you know, slaughterhouses were one of the major hotspots for for COVID spread of COVID. There's higher rates of domestic violence and communities with large amounts of slaughterhouse workers again, because of that, that trauma, and many of them end up committing suicide or end up in mental hospitals. I mean, we're literally paying people unlivable wages to go to war on our behalf, every single day.

Gwenna Hunter: 31:31

Gonna add like, I'm so happy to hear you talk about slaughterhouse workers because often what I find in the the animal rights vegan movement, or where we vegans, animal rights activists, demonized slaughterhouse workers to a point of just I had a breaking moment where I'm like, you know, I can't be on social media that much because I got into a knocked out dragged down, fight with someone online that was talking about slaughterhouse workers and how they deserve to have their throats cut. And I'm like, doing everything you said, I was like, do you understand like, sometimes people that are just coming out of prison, these are the only jobs that they can get?

Claudia Lifton: 32:12

Well in prison, it is in prison that are forced to work in slaughterhouse. Yes,

Gwenna Hunter: 32:17

yes, that is well, that is,

Claudia Lifton: 32:20

you know, companies will meet folks at the border and promise them a path to citizenship and promised them good pay, and they can't leave. And if they Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a really big problem in the vegan movement, especially within white veganism, that we are demonizing these workers. And there's a lot of problems and, you know, myths that need to be dispelled in the general population, but also within the vegan movement itself. And I'm glad that we're having these conversations.

Gwenna Hunter: 32:50

Absolutely. So thank you for that, because you're probably the first person I've heard that expressed such depth and empathy for them. And I'm like, Finally, like, okay.

Claudia Lifton: 33:03

Thank you.

Katie Kurpanek: 33:06

Thank you. I feel like I need to sit with that for a minute before just diving right into the next question, because so much of that information I knew, but you shared a few things that were completely new to me. And it's amazing how much you can still be learning after years. Yeah, I've been vegan for almost five years. And yeah, just still learning all the time. But like you said, this is very, very strategically hidden from us. And I think that's another point to, to be very aware of, in these conversations, whether it's over social media or in person-- And I was talking about this with vegan psychologist, Clare Mann who's also on this podcast series-- she was talking about, we have all been lied to, we're being lied to. And at some point, all of us had to come to the awareness of this, like these truths. And so I need to at least constantly remind myself of that, and put myself in people's shoes who are not yet aware of these things. And so of course, they're feeling defensive. They're feeling like they need to protect themselves from being judged against or feeling like they're, you know, being condemned for their food and their actions. When really, it's just we've all been lied to, and we, but the sad thing is, is that it's still happening. So we need to become aware of it as uncomfortable as that might make us feel we have to become aware of it. So I'm very thankful for this conversation already. And Claudia, if you could expand a little bit more for listeners who are new to all of this, maybe they are not even sure what you know, the factory farms really are that you're talking about or the term like CAFOs, concentrated animal feeding operations. I know a lot of people again in my circle who talk about well, I hate factory farms too but there are humane forms of animal agriculture. And again, this might be very personally connected to them maybe their family's heritage, whatever it is, can you share a little bit more of your thoughts on like, what do you think about humane forms of animal agriculture?

Claudia Lifton: 35:16

Yeah. I think that the word humane has, you know, humane washing is, of course, a huge problem within the industry. The word humane, if you look it up, like on, you know, the diction in the dictionary, it means benevolence, essentially, kindness. So I don't know if there's a benevolent way to slit someone's throat that doesn't want to die. And people like to just use the word humane to remove themselves from what's happening. But when you get into kind of the details of what humane slaughter means and industry terms, it essentially means that you're just shooting an animal in the head with a steel bolt gun, so that they're hopefully stunned and can't feel it when you slit their throats, and then they bleed out. So the word humane, does not coincide does not match the description of what that kind of slaughter looks like. I also think that, arguably, you know, having worked in this movement for almost a decade, I think one of the most significant barriers that we face as a movement is the unbelievable success of the meat and dairy industries. And the egg industry of humane washing, and green washing their products. labels like organic free range, cage free, are essentially meaningless. And again, another, you know, people kind of hide behind those labels to make themselves feel better about what they're contributing to. And that just allows the meat industry and their industry to keep doing exactly what they're doing with no public lash back and even public praise. So I think it's important to note that one, organic really has no animal welfare standards, the organic label just means that the animals are not fed antibiotics or genetically modified corn and soy. But they're still sent to the same exact slaughterhouses, they're still raised in the same exact conditions. There's no regulations or requirements on how much how much outdoors time or even if the animals get time outdoors, with the organic labels. cage free, just means that they're not in battery cages for chickens, so they're not an individual, like metal cages with with metal bars. But cage free facilities are often worse, because the chickens, there's a higher risk of cannibalism, and trampling one another to death, because they're still packed into tiny spaces, you know, there could be 30 to 50,000 chickens in one shed. So instead of cages, they're just, you know, stomping on top of one another. Free Range just means that there's like, a tiny kind of slit that they can. So basically, there could be a barn with 30 to 50,000 birds. And if there's one kind of corner that has like a very small door that opens up to a tiny, tiny dirt patch, and maybe two or three chickens can step foot outside a day, that's technically considered free range, right? So the labels are really misleading. And then of course, even if, even if, for example, in the case of chickens, even if those chickens really weren't truly free range, if they are the breed of chicken that were raising for food right now, it wouldn't even matter because they can't even stand up after they're a few weeks old. We have selectively bred chickens and turkeys to grow to twice their natural size and half the time. So by the time they're just a few weeks over old, they're suffering from heart attacks and organ failure. Their legs are breaking underneath them. They are dying from flip over syndrome where they are just splayed out on their backs and can't turn turn around can't get themselves over. So yeah, those labels have have really damaged the movement and damaged progress significantly. I think. Humane washing I think is one of the most significant barriers that we face as a movement generally and all So greenwashing you know, saying that grass fed beef is better than factory farmed meat. It may be a little bit better for the animals that get to spend the majority of their lives on on pasture. But it's actually far worse. Environmentally speaking, it's grass fed beef is the number one cause of deforestation in the Amazon and the US. Grass fed cows produce more greenhouse gas emissions. There is the majority of wildlife killings, people don't realize this, they care so deeply about wolves and bobcats and foxes. And they get upset about, you know, Wildlife Service's which is a branch of the USDA killing off wild horses and with, you know, helicopters. But the reason that's happening is we're the production of grass fed beef, right? Wildlife Service's, it really almost exclusively kills wild animals, millions and millions of wild animals each year on the behest of ranchers, because they're killing their cattle, or, you know, prairie dogs are digging holes in the earth that the cows can fall into. So yeah, I think those labels are really misleading and really problematic. I think, of course, you know, it's important to be culturally sensitive, if if there are communities that are using kind of like traditional methods of slaughter or hunting and gathering. That's not That's not our problem. That's not even the tip of the iceberg, right. But I do think that it's important to dispel those myths.

Katie Kurpanek: 41:43

It is and to emphasize as well, that all of this is for a cause that is unnecessary. I think that there could be a lot of listeners who are listening to this, and they may, you know, because and I think this because I've been there. So that's why I say this, I remember thinking, okay, yes, I agree. All of this sounds terrible. But isn't it just the circle of life, everything here is supposed to die. And so if it dies, at least it dies with a purpose. And this is just the way things need to be right. So I know that there are thoughts running through people's heads right now like this, but I'm going to re emphasize that this is completely unnecessary. There is another episode in this podcast series with Dr. Neal Barnard who is like, like one of the world's top leading doctors in this field. And he clarifies it very, very much in depth in that episode. But it is not necessary to eat any of these animals or their byproducts.

Claudia Lifton: 42:46

So also show me a lion that keeps a keeps their prey locked in a crate so small that they can't turn around for their whole lives and artificially inseminates them and, you know, eat their babies, and impregnate them every cycle over and over again until they can no longer stand up and then slaughtered like, what we're doing is, is blasphemous. What we're doing is, is an insult in nature. It is an insult to the circle of life. This is not the circle of life. This is a sickness happening in these in these factory farms. It is a sickness. Also, like I don't have canine teeth.

Gwenna Hunter: 43:29

Like people think they do though people think they do. They, ok just go eat the cow without doing all the like breaking it. Just just go up to the cow and just start chewing on the cow with those canine teeth.

Claudia Lifton: 43:42

I know. My teeth are like, not very pointy. So look at a lion's mouth. Trust me. I've done research on I've researched lions. I've been closed up with them. It is terrifying. My mouth looks nothing like that of a lion. It looks like the mouth of a cow though. My teeth look a lot like the mouth of a cow. Yeah.

Katie Kurpanek: 44:05

Yeah. Wow. Well, Claudia, thank you so much for sharing everything that you did. I think that you I mean, you touched on every possible clarification point I could have even thought of and then some. So thank you so much for that it was insanely helpful. And I would love to, you know, shift this conversation in a slightly different direction. Going back to something that you shared Gwenna earlier about, I think you called them the blueprints, the blueprints of systematic oppression and slavery and exploitation that you recognized within this animal agriculture industry. So if I would love if we could share a little bit about those connections that you've seen between animal agriculture and then social justice issues and slavery and exploitation and all of that.

Gwenna Hunter: 44:59

Yeah, Well, for me, it starts that the programming. When I first came to these revelations, and I'm like, well, cows love. And then, you know, I watched, you know, the dairy is scary and found out that a cow's pregnant for nine months and saw what we did to their body, I was under the impression until 2016, that a farmer put his little overalls on and got on a wooden stoop, and he milked the cow, and the milk just came out effortlessly. And she said, moo, and, like, that's crazy. That's what, that's how I thought we were getting all this milk, like, so that I'm still mad all like, you don't even question any of this stuff like something, and this is how we get our milk. And then when I find out the truth, I'm like, wait a minute, if this is, and I'm, you know, being taught that you get your calcium from milk, and you get your protein from, from flesh, and this and I'm like, wait a minute, I've been lied to my entire life. And I learned this in school. And if they're lying, to me, who's giving them the curriculum, who is the who, who's running this ship, who is creating these structures, and putting these things in place and programming us, from the time that we get out of the wombs and make us you know, you see cows jumping around, and they're happy, and you see pigs, you know, funny and telling jokes. And yet, we're not making the connection that, you know, these animals have personalities, but yet we're being told to eat them. And I just started questioning everything because I'm like, this whole thing has to be cracked, wide open, like we're being lied to on so many levels. And, you know, over, I started my career working for vegan outreach, and giving talks and giving out meals and things like that in exchange for people listening and things like that. And so I've learned how to kind of craft my conversation based on who the audience is. But one thing that is pretty universal, because I've learned from terrible experience, like, you know, certain black, black and brown communities don't go in talking about animal rights, not in that straight, linear, basic way. So I learned how to kind of craft that. And so one day I was talking and it just kind of came out naturally. And I'm like, what type of society like we're, like you were saying, like, it's sick. And I'm like, so we take the animal. And this is what I say to people. I first asked people if they can, you know, has anyone ever suffered before? Has anyone ever felt violated? Anyone ever felt like, you know, they didn't matter, their voice wasn't being heard, or people don't see you. And so I talk to people about animals in that way, because that's something that a lot of people have in common is who hasn't had some form of suffering at some point in their life, or they're at least 30 years old, you've experienced something that you can relate to. But, you know, when I was talking, and I was like, You know what, these animals, we, first of all, we eat their bodies, we eat their legs and their butts, and their backs. We eat their necks and their arms and their feet. their butts, you know, we crack open their butts and stuff bread in it and call it thanksgiving, like, just sick when you think about it. And then not only do we, you know, eat their body parts, we also go inside their bodies, and we eat their organs. We eat their livers, we eat their hearts. Then we take their ribs, their rib cages, why can you imagine somebody's you know, hungry for your ribs, you know, we eat their ribs, now we're not done. We then take the skin off their bodies, and we wear them. We take the fur off their bodies, and we call them you know, clothing and things like that. And so when I'm used to saying that people are like, Oh my God, that sounds disgusting. It's like, Yeah, it sounds like a cult. Sounds like a complete blood cult that you're eating some bodies. You're drinking blood. You're eating babies. You're like, and that's facts. I'm not just like, you know, I can word it this way. But these are facts. We're eating babies. We're eating somebody's son we're eating somebody's daughter reading somebody's mother somebody's father. And that usually plants a seed and people because they're visualizing what I'm saying. And they also know I'm telling the truth. Like Yeah, it sounds gross, but you think and then we eat like one thing I always try to remember is to say we eat breasts. What? Breasts. And that's called like, that's like the good stuff that's like healthy, you know, white meat or whatever, to help prevent cancers and things like that, but it couldn't be more cancer causing. Imagine taking on the DNA of another animals breasts. So somebody else's breast, somebody's feet. So and then I'm into the whole energy aspect of it, because to me, it's like taking on the suffering, you know, when you're taking eating tissue, and eating flesh, tissue holds trauma, you know, and these animals almost always know what's getting ready to happen to them. And you're then clicking that and you're not only consuming the flesh, but because of the juices, the blood and the tissue. It there's a scientific point of it, I don't know how to break it down, but it is scientific that you are also taking in spiritual matter, which probably, you know, I wouldn't be surprised of what why certain people may have anxiety or have depression or have certain things that they just can't, you know, because they keep eating the same type of foods. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know if I answered your question, but I could keep going off

Katie Kurpanek: 50:53

please keep going off. This is all this is all so important for us to hear. Just put so bluntly, you're just speaking exactly how it is. And it again, it makes people uncomfortable. It makes us cringe and everything, but it's because of the stark truth of it all.

Claudia Lifton: 51:12

Gwenna, that was so powerful. I I am moved. That was beautiful at your Yeah, thank you for saying everything you just said.

Gwenna Hunter: 51:22

I appreciate it. Thank you.

Claudia Lifton: 51:23

And I am so sorry, I interrupted you. Okay. No,

Gwenna Hunter: 51:27

I was I was gonna say because like, I like all the stuff you said, because you, you come more like with with the facts. I'm not as good on facts, because I'm not I don't like school and stuff like I'm more of a feeler or and download. So it's easy for me to talk in this way. But I need to also be more on the facts. Because not everybody gets them for most people don't care about the spiritual part. Like that's a small percentage of people. Most people want to hear the science, they want to hear the data, you know, everybody is stimulated in a different way. Or it may make sense based on how this person explains it to where I can say it to somebody and they're like, we're I need some proof when we see this in writing. So

Claudia Lifton: 52:15

I love I love what what Katie said about how like putting it so bluntly just makes it so clear. How vulgar and vile this all is because yeah, like we shroud ourselves in euphemism constantly, right? Like we say beef instead of cow. We say we say pork instead of pig. We say slaughter instead of murder. And then we sound extreme when we use the word murder, right? We are just constantly so deeply desperate to avoid what's happening. Yeah, and again, yeah, it's just so preventable. It's so unnecessary. All of this destruction, all of this sickness, all of this suffering. It is just so unnecessary. Yeah, that's, that's the craziest part. To me. It's not like, you know, it's not like oil and gas, where it's very destructive. And we need to find an alternative. But we do need energy, we do need to be able to get around and you know, heat our houses and we do not need to eat animals. We do not need this doesn't need to be happening. It's It's crazy to think of just how disastrous and destructive This is. And it's just completely unnecessary. Yeah.

Katie Kurpanek: 53:41

It's, it's unnecessary, like we've clarified, but also I think that people have this, this misconception in their head that, well, if we don't do this, then all these animals are just going to be like running wild and taking over the earth. Right. And so then what are we going to do like, but that's just honestly not true, because it is unnatural. What we've created, we are breeding. I mean, billions and billions of animals for consumption. And that -

Claudia Lifton: 54:11

animals that, by the way, by design literally couldn't even survive on their own. I mean, their environments are so controlled, that they wouldn't even really like chickens could barely live past six weeks. So even if they were able to breed, which now by the way, they're not-- it's, you know, animal beastiality, basically beastiality, the way that we're breeding and inseminating these animals, they can't even mate on their own. So, no, they wouldn't take over the world. Like they wouldn't even be able to, like reproduce on their own or this outside of these, like artificial environments that we've created for them.

Katie Kurpanek: 54:49

Yeah, okay, so we we have clarified all of the, just like the stark truths behind This industry and and what we're doing, the ways that we're being lied to, the fact that this is unnecessary, a lot of other, you know, misconceptions we've cleared up here. And

Claudia Lifton: 55:10

there, there is one misconception that I do want to also address at some point. I don't know if that's your

Katie Kurpanek: 55:18

No, yeah, let's go back to that. Yeah.

Claudia Lifton: 55:20

Um, so one of I think the most common things that all vegans hear is that like, tofu is destroying the Amazon rainforest and soy is, is the Antichrist. I think it's very important to note that roughly 2.7, or, you know, almost 3% of the soy grown on the planet is grown to produce like tofu and soy milk. 70% of all of the soy grown on Earth is grown to feed farmed animals 70% of it, and then that other percentage is used to produce like, oil. So, you know, conventional kitchens, or using vegetable oil or processed food, like potato chips, have, you know, soybean oil, typically. So, yes, again, almost all of the destruction of the Amazon rainforest is due to grass fed beef production and growing soy that's fed to animals.

Katie Kurpanek: 56:18

Yes. Which goes, I mean, again, there's a whole other episode coming in this podcast series about it, but the environmental impacts of the you know, meat and dairy industry is just astronomical. And, honestly, it is scientifically proven that we could reverse climate change and the terrible devastation that we've done to our planet. If we were to go towards a vegan, you know, plant based diet. So, yeah, I think that these, these are incredibly important points in my mind that we've cleared up and then you know, bringing it back to Gwenna's thoughts too about we, we've been here before we've done this before this, what we're doing right now is speciesism, which I didn't even hear that word until, like this year, but speciesism you know, putting certain species above others and like a class order. We've been there before. We've done that in other parts of our social history, with race and cultures and people groups and so on, dehumanizing any living being-- whether it's an animal or human animal dehumanizing, talking down, like the life that's within that being is a classic trait of all those -ism words, sexism, racism, speciesism, all of it. So, kind of bringing it in for a landing now, because this has all been important, but it's also been very heavy information. I would love if each of you could share, you know, 1-3 actionable steps that our listeners could take as soon as today like, maybe they're feeling really conflicted and stirred up emotions inside or maybe they're, like, totally pumped up. They're like, Alright, cool, I want to go vegan tomorrow, whatever they're feeling, what would be like 1-3 tangible steps that you would recommend for our listeners to take to just, you know, expand their education, their understanding around human rights, animal rights, veganism. Any of that.

Claudia Lifton: 58:22

I can go ahead. And the first thing that I tell anyone is, even if you never go vegan, even if you just eliminate certain things out of your diet, make it chicken and fish. If you want to have the biggest bang for your buck, if you want to have the biggest impact possible, not only from a human rights perspective, but also from an animal suffering perspective, chicken and fish should be the first to go. Even if that's all you ever do is chicken and fish. You know that that's still doing a lot. So that I would say is number one. And to expand on that it's just important to note that chickens make up 88% of the 9 billion animals killed in the country each year. Wow, they have the least legal protection. So chickens are actually exempt from the Humane Slaughter Act, which means it's technically not illegal to boil them alive. According to the USDA, there are 10 million chickens scalded to death and beef gathering tanks every single day. So, you know, we get so mad about the Yulin dog meat festival. It's like 20,000 dogs in a couple of weeks. This is 10 million a day anyways. Yeah, so chickens and also just the way that chickens are bred their whole lives from birth to death just it couldn't be worse. So avoiding chicken even if it had those labels, like we talked about, like organic and cage free and all that stuff, and avoiding fish. If you're not ready to avoid all fish, yet The biggest thing from your for your buck will be avoiding shrimp. I can go into that. But I know we're trying to end on a positive note and I don't want to talk about too many disturbing things, but they can go Google it. Yeah, from an environmental and human rights perspective, I would say like, really focusing on getting shrimp out of your diet is important. And then beyond that, I would say the second step would be educating yourself and educating others, you know, clearly Gwenna, you know, you gave up dairy because you watched a single video, even if you yourself are not ready to go completely vegan, which is okay. It's so important to get this information out there because the meat industry is so desperate to keep it hidden. So I think like it's a revolutionary act, to, to post on social media, about this, this thing that's so hidden from us so intentionally, by this fun, believably powerful industry. That is a powerful act. And then, if you want to get more involved, start volunteering, you know, the organization, I work for Mercy for Animals, that organization that Gwenna worked for vegan outreach, they both have robust volunteer programs. There's so many sanctuaries all over the place. I know, just a shout out in Colorado, I'm on the board of a animal sanctuary called Good Life refuge. And we're always always in need of volunteers in any capacity, so take some time to find where your passions are. If you're good at fundraising, fundraise for an org fundraise for a sanctuary if you want to work directly with the animals do that if you you know, are really excited about leafleting go leaflet if you want to educate, do some presentations, there's there's so many orgs out there that are in need of help and you can use whatever skill you have and whatever passion area that you have to make a difference in this movement and make a difference for animals. Um,

Gwenna Hunter: 1:02:14

first of all, I didn't know this statistic you just said you said chickens are 80% of the animal population that are slaughtered per year

Claudia Lifton: 1:02:22

88% of the animals killed in the country are chickens and they have the least production.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:02:28

Is that for United States of America?

Claudia Lifton: 1:02:30

Yep, just the US.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:02:31

So yeah, I'm just gonna jot this down because I need to add this to my arsenal. This is excellent. I had no idea. Thank you for that extra fact that I was saying one thing that I'm working on, because I have a food bank that I just started in May. And we operate at two different locations. Have a brick and mortar and another physical location twice a month. And I do it because you know, I feel like everyone is entitled to good food, but I'm working on a booklet so that people can be educated. You know, they're just not taking the food that's vegan like they I'm gonna have them like learn some facts and things like this. So this is really good information. I had never heard this before. And I've heard about so much stuff. I've never heard that chickens are 88 percent I always thought it was cows. Were the most slaughtered animals. I didn't know. But chicken. complete sense. It makes sense.

Claudia Lifton: 1:03:34

Yeah, cuz it takes like almost 300 chickens to produce the same amount of meat as a single cow. And also in terms of like, pounds per year- Americans just love chicken we eat. We eat more pounds of chicken per year than we do any other type of meat. Yeah. And it takes so many more chickens to produce the same amount of pounds of meat as it does a cow or a pig. Yeah. So, from like a Effective Altruism standpoint. Or like from a an animal protection or animal suffering. Perspective. Chicken is an important one to focus on.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:04:12

Yeah. So yeah, so anyway, one thing that I want people especially in black and brown communities, or in that are dealing with, you know, financial challenges. I can't say it enough to people like don't drink milk, like that stuff is toxic to the body. There's so much like, you know, legal amount of pus and blood that they allow in milk. And it's weird because you can get a bottle of water and on the back it will say the ingredients, you know, let you know how much sodium and how much magnesium is in it. But you don't get that with milk. They don't do that with milk. They don't do that with meat. They don't do--

Claudia Lifton: 1:04:55

the dairy lobby is a powerful thing.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:04:58

And it's like, and people always say, Oh, that's processed-- like no what you're drinking and eating is incredibly processed. They just don't put the ingredients on stuff. So it's like when you're telling people about the pus and the blood and all that. So I guess my point is, people need to research what is legally allowed in milk. That way, it doesn't sound like I'm just making up something. Research what's legally allowed to be in the milk. And compare that to the United States versus other countries. Like, we're like, way over the top. So like, people can just like educate themselves, they will stop drinking that toxic liquid,

Claudia Lifton: 1:05:35

an eye dropper full of pus, by the way, that's the legal limit.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:05:39

Gross

Claudia Lifton: 1:05:41

in every every eight ounce glass of milk. Yeah. Also not even to mention, like, you know, even organic like, milk is literally just a growth hormone, right? That's why they have to say no added growth hormones when it's organic, quote, unquote,

Gwenna Hunter: 1:05:55

oh the trickery.

Claudia Lifton: 1:05:56

It's just a growth hormone. It only exists to grow a baby calf from like 75 pounds to 600 pounds in nine months. That's why it exists. Like, and then we wonder and then we wonder why girls are getting their period so early. We're why people getting breast cancer and ovarian cancer at higher rates than ever before. And we're worried about estrogen and soy. I know that again, again, thanks to the dairy industry lobby who put out all that pseudoscience research, because they're so scared of soy. Yes. Thank you for bringing that up. I could, Yeah. Down with the dairy industry, that's my whole shpeal

Gwenna Hunter: 1:06:44

Yeah, I just wish people would be better like would take the time to research. What's in that stuff. Because the food bank that I work with, it's there's already a physical food bank. And so they they give me they share one of their weeks with me, where I take over, and I completely veganized one of their weeks, but the other weeks, they got milk. They got you know, clams in the can they got you know, and people when people will come to my week, they wonder like any milk and I'm like, oh, no, and you're never going to see the cow's milk here.

Claudia Lifton: 1:07:17

That is so amazing. And important. I can't emphasize enough how just impressive it is that you've been able to do that and how huge that is to even just like, let folks see that other alternatives exist.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:07:33

Exactly.

Claudia Lifton: 1:07:34

That's huge. And again, yeah, like milk is a huge race, racial issue. I don't know. I mean, of course, like the fact that like only really white Europeans have the enzyme to digest it. So we're poisoning children, children in schools that are black and brown, we're essentially forcing milk on them. Because the dairy lobby is so goddamn powerful. We're forcing poison on them. And then they're performing more poorly than their white counterparts. counterparts at school, which just adds another and have are way more likely to suffer from chronic illness, which just adds another layer on to the already massive mountains that are stacked against them. It's racist as f*** to serve black and brown children and indigenous children milk that and

Gwenna Hunter: 1:08:24

I didn't even know that until just a few years ago. Like, forgive me being vegan, I still don't even know about this part until I saw a video about Dr. Milton Mills confronting and I'm watching I'm like, another mystery uncovered. No so like people need to know this, this information and I'm gonna do my best to make sure it's in these booklets so that people know, I'm doing one in English and one in Spanish. Whenever I get finished with the it's a task of a lifetime, but I'm determined to get it done like really soon. And then nothing I like to tell people you know, even though like I have it in me to be critical and judgmental, but I I work on it all the time. And so I try to meet people where they are and be gentle but it's it's constant work. It's not like it just comes on automatically to me. Sometimes I want to fight and throw down but I fought so much and I'm just like, You know what, I just want to namaste my way through this conversation, I'm just like, I just I'm tired of fighting, but um, yeah, I just try to tell people to if they aren't moved enough to just go vegan right away based on what they've learned to just try to eliminate an animal at a time and work on work on achieving that because I tell people you could have never ever, ever, ever, ever told me I wouldn't be vegan. And doing this, doing this stuff for a living, caring about animals, and empathy for an- like, this was not me. Like I could have never foreseen this lifestyle, this career, this energy, this feeling like, if I if someone would have told me this 10 years ago, I'd have been like, yeah, there is no way. So I'm like, if I can do this, there's there's no excuses.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:10:32

Same! That, yeah, same, it was my entire life, I was always the person saying, Oh, I could never give up meat. You know, I was like, Oh, I tried to be vegetarian for like a week in seventh grade. And it really, I did not actually try I think it was a phase I was trying to get attention. But I was always saying, I could never give up meat, I could never give up cheese, or whatever it was. And I did not personally go vegan for the animals. It was like my own health, and then the environment. And then I learned more about animals later on. So this conversation, I know, I've said it a million times. But I'll say it again and again, is so important. All the points covered here, we need to get this education out there. And you both are just powerhouses, I'm so honored and privileged to have been able to share space with you and the work that you're doing. There is so much that has to be done within our society, particularly within the US around food deserts and inequities around food security and access to plant based foods and all that but both of you are doing very crucial work in order to expand that and make that more available for all people. So I'm incredibly thankful for you both I'm going to put all of your contact information. And just you know, information about things we've talked about in the episode description. And if there are any listeners who are just feeling like they need to do something more they want to get this education out there, then you can start by sharing this episode, just share it with people in your circle, and allow them to hear these things from for themselves. And I think that's it. I'll stop my rant at that point. I know I'm biased, but I just love this conversation. And thank you both so much for the work that you're doing.

Claudia Lifton: 1:12:21

Thank you so much.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:12:22

Thank you. This was, I learned so much being on this call so this was great.

Claudia Lifton: 1:12:27

Yeah, no, this was extremely valuable. And I am so grateful to end the week with this conversation that that feels so uplifting and actionable. I know that it wasn't all uplifting the whole time but I am feeling uplifted now. Another thing that I would really recommend is reading the book Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer. If you want a very, like unbiased fact based but still beautifully written, and like storytelling type way of learning this information that is like very well researched very, yeah, I would read the book eating animals by Jonathan Safran Foer. And if you're particularly sensitive, just skip the chapter our the chapter called our new sadism. And otherwise, really, it's not particularly disturbing. It's just very informative and powerful and beautifully written and, and yeah, listen to this podcast, the rest of the episodes.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:13:27

Thank you. Thank you both so much. I'm excited to get together with you Claudia in person, you live near me, and then Gwenna if I'm ever in California, or you're here, like please look me up. I would love to get together with you as well.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:13:42

Sounds good.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:13:44

Well, have a wonderful night, the both of you and thank you so much for your time.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:13:48

Thank you. All right. Nice meeting everyone.

Claudia Lifton: 1:13:51

Nice meeting you. Thank you.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:13:54

Bye.

Gwenna Hunter: 1:13:55

Bye.

Katie Kurpanek: 1:13:58

I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and if you did, I would love it if you would share it with a friend. Spread the word over your social media, or simply leave a review wherever you subscribe to this podcast to help others find it as well. Thank you so much for being here. I'll catch you next time.